Miles Davis and Bob Dylan

[Just Walkin']

Mile Davis' abandonment of the cool jazz acoustic form he mastered in
favor of the electrified funk of In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew and On
the Corner was debated by purists at the time in much the same way as
Bob's switch to electric instruments provoked the folk crowd just a
few years before. Not only did both developments create new divisions
in the market, they fed hooks and handles to other artists for years
to come as they broadened creative frontiers and market shares by
contributing to the development of genre.

This striking parallel, and the fact that they shared the same label,
begs the question: Does anyone know anything about any meetings
between Bob Dylan and Miles Davis and what, if anything, might they
have discussed?

[crazytimes]

Post by Just Walkin'
Mile Davis' abandonment of the cool jazz acoustic form he mastered in
favor of the electrified funk of In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew and On
the Corner was debated by purists at the time in much the same way as
Bob's switch to electric instruments provoked the folk crowd just a
few years before. Not only did both developments create new divisions
in the market, they fed hooks and handles to other artists for years
to come as they broadened creative frontiers and market shares by
contributing to the development of genre.

It's funny that it was considered 'selling out' by Miles to have 'gone
electric' or 'gone rock', when the electric Miles period from '68 to
'75 is some of the most uncommercial-sounding music there is... It is
still, to this day, a challenge to listen to, even for Miles Davis
fans...

But let's not forget the lots of forms that Miles abandoned before he
'went electric'... Be-Bop... Cool Jazz... Symphonic Jazz... Chord
Progressions...

Bob could be said to have abandoned Protest c. 1964...

Post by Just Walkin'
This striking parallel, and the fact that they shared the same label,
begs the question: Does anyone know anything about any meetings
between Bob Dylan and Miles Davis and what, if anything, might they
have discussed?

Being on both Columbia and living in New York in the early and late
'60s, their paths probably passed... Bob has said or written of
seeing Miles and the other jazz greats during his early Village days
when the jazz venues had moved down to the Village... I think there
is a photo of a sunglassed Bob in the Bootleg Series 1-3 sitting out
at someone's CBS records related part... It might even have been
Miles'...

[M. Rick]

Post by crazytimes
It's funny that it was considered 'selling out' by Miles to have 'gone

electric' or 'gone rock', when the electric Miles period from '68 to '75 is
some of the most uncommercial-sounding music there is...

Not so surprising since jazz players tended to disparage rock music. Miles
did not, or at least he was partial to the instrumental rock played by JH
Experience and Cream. Both had jazz oriented drummers and outstanding
soloists. I don't hear any cross-influence between Miles and Dylan.

[Just Walkin']

Post by M. Rick

Post by crazytimes
It's funny that it was considered 'selling out' by Miles to have 'gone

electric' or 'gone rock', when the electric Miles period from '68 to '75 is
some of the most uncommercial-sounding music there is...
Not so surprising since jazz players tended to disparage rock music. Miles
did not, or at least he was partial to the instrumental rock played by JH
Experience and Cream. Both had jazz oriented drummers and outstanding
soloists. I don't hear any cross-influence between Miles and Dylan.

There aren't any traceable influences by one on the other's music, but
I imagine they must have met, maybe even swapped notes on this woman
they both carried on with called the music industry. Both were accused
of selling out by their core following. And both weren't afraid to
take risks. And like Bob, Miles gained vast influence on the shape of
sounds to come, markets in tow, for decades to follow. In A Silent Way
alone spawned an entire generation of sounds, players and markets that
are still serving and being served to this day. It was perhaps one of
the single most important albums ever made for its "silent influence"
on the music industry.

Who can deny that this lineup is one of the best ever recorded both
for virtuosity and historical impact?

Mile Davis - Trumpet
Herbie Hancock - Electric Piano
Chick Corea - Electric Piano
Wayne Shorter - Tenor Sax
Dave Holland - Bass
Joe Zawinul - Electric Piano and Organ
John McLaughlin - Electric Guitar
Tony Williams - Drums

Of course the deal was sealed after Bitches Brew, but this was the
seed. After these New Directions, the careers of these players
skyrocketed and became inextricably connected with the rise of fusion,
jazz rock, acid jazz, new age, funk jazz, disco, hip hop and world
music and with bands such as The Headhunters, Weather Report,
Lifetime, Return to Forever, The Mahavishnu Orchestra and their
descendants each of whose players then served to further propagate the
sound and perpetuate the market.

Keep in kind that these were deliberate risks these men took with
identifiable results. True historical players; different sounds, same
dynamic. Clearly they understood what they were getting into, but how
aware were they about how far it would take them and what they were
going to get out of it?

[Harm van Sleen]

No idea if Miles Davis and Bob Dylan ever met, but here's a couple of very
vague connections: Dylan is mentioned in the liner notes to Bitches Brew if
I'm not mistaken, and Highway 61-veteran Harvey Brooks played bass on that
album. Miles Davis also opened for the Band at the Hollywood Bowl in '70.

Post by Just Walkin'

Post by M. Rick

Post by crazytimes
It's funny that it was considered 'selling out' by Miles to have 'gone

electric' or 'gone rock', when the electric Miles period from '68 to '75 is
some of the most uncommercial-sounding music there is...
Not so surprising since jazz players tended to disparage rock music.
Miles
did not, or at least he was partial to the instrumental rock played by JH
Experience and Cream. Both had jazz oriented drummers and outstanding
soloists. I don't hear any cross-influence between Miles and Dylan.

There aren't any traceable influences by one on the other's music, but
I imagine they must have met, maybe even swapped notes on this woman
they both carried on with called the music industry. Both were accused
of selling out by their core following. And both weren't afraid to
take risks. And like Bob, Miles gained vast influence on the shape of
sounds to come, markets in tow, for decades to follow. In A Silent Way
alone spawned an entire generation of sounds, players and markets that
are still serving and being served to this day. It was perhaps one of
the single most important albums ever made for its "silent influence"
on the music industry.
Who can deny that this lineup is one of the best ever recorded both
for virtuosity and historical impact?
Mile Davis - Trumpet
Herbie Hancock - Electric Piano
Chick Corea - Electric Piano
Wayne Shorter - Tenor Sax
Dave Holland - Bass
Joe Zawinul - Electric Piano and Organ
John McLaughlin - Electric Guitar
Tony Williams - Drums
Of course the deal was sealed after Bitches Brew, but this was the
seed. After these New Directions, the careers of these players
skyrocketed and became inextricably connected with the rise of fusion,
jazz rock, acid jazz, new age, funk jazz, disco, hip hop and world
music and with bands such as The Headhunters, Weather Report,
Lifetime, Return to Forever, The Mahavishnu Orchestra and their
descendants each of whose players then served to further propagate the
sound and perpetuate the market.
Keep in kind that these were deliberate risks these men took with
identifiable results. True historical players; different sounds, same
dynamic. Clearly they understood what they were getting into, but how
aware were they about how far it would take them and what they were
going to get out of it?

[B***@webtv.net]

years ago in "isis" i read that bob collected miles davis bootlegs.
don't know what their source was for this.

[crazytimes]

Post by B***@webtv.net
years ago in "isis" i read that bob collected miles davis bootlegs.
don't know what their source was for this.

Sounds like that Bob has good taste in music...

[Rachel]

Post by crazytimes

Post by B***@webtv.net
years ago in "isis" i read that bob collected miles davis bootlegs.
don't know what their source was for this.

Sounds like that Bob has good taste in music...

that's why he eats lotsa beans! :)

[J Buck]

***@webtv.net wrote: <years ago in "isis" i read that bob
collected miles davis bootlegs.>

crazytimes wrote: <Sounds like that Bob has good taste in music...>

Sounds to me like Bob liked Miles Davis. How is that necessarily good
taste? Does that mean if someone doesn't like Miles Davis they have poor
taste in music?

[crazytimes]

Post by J Buck
collected miles davis bootlegs.>
crazytimes wrote: <Sounds like that Bob has good taste in music...>
Sounds to me like Bob liked Miles Davis. How is that necessarily good
taste? Does that mean if someone doesn't like Miles Davis they have poor
taste in music?

Probably...

[Tom K]

Post by J Buck
collected miles davis bootlegs.>
crazytimes wrote: <Sounds like that Bob has good taste in music...>
Sounds to me like Bob liked Miles Davis. How is that necessarily good
taste? Does that mean if someone doesn't like Miles Davis they have poor
taste in music?

No. not at all. It just means they have a limited outlook, musically
speaking.
That doesn't mean that they are stupid, or flawed individuals. It's sort of
like people who live perfectly good lives, without ever eating a gourmet
dinner, because they prefer a simpler steak'n'potatoeskindadinner.
There's no good or bad involved in this, though I guess a more neutral
wording than "linited outlook" might make that point better, any
suggestions?

[Rachel]

Post by Tom K

Post by J Buck
collected miles davis bootlegs.>
crazytimes wrote: <Sounds like that Bob has good taste in music...>
Sounds to me like Bob liked Miles Davis. How is that necessarily good
taste? Does that mean if someone doesn't like Miles Davis they have poor
taste in music?

No. not at all. It just means they have a limited outlook, musically
speaking.
That doesn't mean that they are stupid, or flawed individuals. It's sort of
like people who live perfectly good lives, without ever eating a gourmet
dinner, because they prefer a simpler steak'n'potatoeskindadinner.
There's no good or bad involved in this, though I guess a more neutral
wording than "linited outlook" might make that point better, any
suggestions?

g-d, i have weak eyes.

i thought that said Mavis Staples until i opened it up and started
scanning.

my name is a joke.

[Treadleson]

Post by crazytimes

Post by Just Walkin'
Mile Davis' abandonment of the cool jazz acoustic form he mastered in
favor of the electrified funk of In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew and On
the Corner was debated by purists at the time in much the same way as
Bob's switch to electric instruments provoked the folk crowd just a
few years before. Not only did both developments create new divisions
in the market, they fed hooks and handles to other artists for years
to come as they broadened creative frontiers and market shares by
contributing to the development of genre.

It's funny that it was considered 'selling out' by Miles to have 'gone
electric' or 'gone rock', when the electric Miles period from '68 to
'75 is some of the most uncommercial-sounding music there is... It is
still, to this day, a challenge to listen to, even for Miles Davis
fans...
But let's not forget the lots of forms that Miles abandoned before he
'went electric'... Be-Bop... Cool Jazz... Symphonic Jazz... Chord
Progressions...
Bob could be said to have abandoned Protest c. 1964...

Post by Just Walkin'
This striking parallel, and the fact that they shared the same label,
begs the question: Does anyone know anything about any meetings
between Bob Dylan and Miles Davis and what, if anything, might they
have discussed?

Being on both Columbia and living in New York in the early and late
'60s, their paths probably passed... Bob has said or written of
seeing Miles and the other jazz greats during his early Village days
when the jazz venues had moved down to the Village... I think there
is a photo of a sunglassed Bob in the Bootleg Series 1-3 sitting out
at someone's CBS records related part... It might even have been
Miles'...

Well said. There is nothing to add to this.

[Manuel]

Bob on Miles (Scott Cohen Interview, California, September 1985)

Miles Davis is my definition of cool. I loved to see him in the small clubs
playing his solo, turn his back on the crowd, put down his horn and walk off
the stage, let the band keep playing, and then come back and play a few
notes at the end. I did that at a couple of shows. The audience thought I
was sick or something...

Post by Just Walkin'
Mile Davis' abandonment of the cool jazz acoustic form he mastered in
favor of the electrified funk of In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew and On
the Corner was debated by purists at the time in much the same way as
Bob's switch to electric instruments provoked the folk crowd just a
few years before. Not only did both developments create new divisions
in the market, they fed hooks and handles to other artists for years
to come as they broadened creative frontiers and market shares by
contributing to the development of genre.
This striking parallel, and the fact that they shared the same label,
begs the question: Does anyone know anything about any meetings
between Bob Dylan and Miles Davis and what, if anything, might they
have discussed?

[George Spanos]

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:52:18 -0700
Subject: Miles Davis and Bob Dylan
Mile Davis' abandonment of the cool jazz acoustic form he mastered in
favor of the electrified funk of In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew and On
the Corner was debated by purists at the time in much the same way as
Bob's switch to electric instruments provoked the folk crowd just a
few years before. Not only did both developments create new divisions
in the market, they fed hooks and handles to other artists for years
to come as they broadened creative frontiers and market shares by
contributing to the development of genre.
This striking parallel, and the fact that they shared the same label,
begs the question: Does anyone know anything about any meetings
between Bob Dylan and Miles Davis and what, if anything, might they
have discussed?

I don't know about any meetings, but I did read an interview once where
Bob thought that Miles' turning his back to the audience while playing
was the ultimate cool thing to do. Bob's not particularly warm to his
audiences either, so maybe that's a point of similarity not previously
witnessed among pop artists of their generation.

[M. Rick]

I don't know about any meetings, but I did read an interview once where Bob

thought that Miles' turning his back to the audience while playing was the
ultimate cool thing to do. Bob's not particularly warm to his audiences
either, so maybe that's a point of similarity not previously witnessed among
pop artists of their generation.

Miles was from an earlier generation than Dylan. Many jazz musicians
imitated Miles and shared his attitude (or at least pretended as much).
Dylan, on the other hand, has become a standout among popular artists in his
refusal to address his audience. Not my definition of cool.

It's unusual to call Miles Davis a "pop artist."

[Rachel]

Post by M. Rick

I don't know about any meetings, but I did read an interview once where Bob

thought that Miles' turning his back to the audience while playing was the
ultimate cool thing to do. Bob's not particularly warm to his audiences
either, so maybe that's a point of similarity not previously witnessed among
pop artists of their generation.
Miles was from an earlier generation than Dylan. Many jazz musicians
imitated Miles and shared his attitude (or at least pretended as much).
Dylan, on the other hand, has become a standout among popular artists in his
refusal to address his audience. Not my definition of cool.
It's unusual to call Miles Davis a "pop artist."

Bob Dylan bowed down to me. I think that's cool. :)

Even beyond that; regal, dignified.

He's G-d.

So I'm happy.

Even though I gripe and complain that he isn't here fucking my brians
out.

Damn!

[Rachel]

Post by Rachel

Post by M. Rick

I don't know about any meetings, but I did read an interview once where Bob

thought that Miles' turning his back to the audience while playing was the
ultimate cool thing to do. Bob's not particularly warm to his audiences
either, so maybe that's a point of similarity not previously witnessed among
pop artists of their generation.
Miles was from an earlier generation than Dylan. Many jazz musicians
imitated Miles and shared his attitude (or at least pretended as much).
Dylan, on the other hand, has become a standout among popular artists in his
refusal to address his audience. Not my definition of cool.
It's unusual to call Miles Davis a "pop artist."

Bob Dylan bowed down to me. I think that's cool. :)
Even beyond that; regal, dignified.
He's G-d.
So I'm happy.
Even though I gripe and complain that he isn't here fucking my brians
out.
Damn!

But the real question is, HOW TALL IS HE??

I'm 5' 7 1/2"".

I think he was wearing boots....

I'm not sure if he bowed at the microphone.

He surely bowed when I flicked my bic lighter three times, and he
turned towards me up in the corner, bowed, I saw his torso and legs
and everything, and played to me, until they called/knocked for me to
go down, and save his career.

[Rachel]

Post by Rachel

Post by Rachel

Post by M. Rick

I don't know about any meetings, but I did read an interview once where Bob

thought that Miles' turning his back to the audience while playing was the
ultimate cool thing to do. Bob's not particularly warm to his audiences
either, so maybe that's a point of similarity not previously witnessed among
pop artists of their generation.
Miles was from an earlier generation than Dylan. Many jazz musicians
imitated Miles and shared his attitude (or at least pretended as much).
Dylan, on the other hand, has become a standout among popular artists in his
refusal to address his audience. Not my definition of cool.
It's unusual to call Miles Davis a "pop artist."

Bob Dylan bowed down to me. I think that's cool. :)
Even beyond that; regal, dignified.
He's G-d.
So I'm happy.
Even though I gripe and complain that he isn't here fucking my brians
out.
Damn!

But the real question is, HOW TALL IS HE??
I'm 5' 7 1/2"".
I think he was wearing boots....
I'm not sure if he bowed at the microphone.
He surely bowed when I flicked my bic lighter three times, and he
turned towards me up in the corner, bowed, I saw his torso and legs
and everything, and played to me, until they called/knocked for me to
go down, and save his career.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Hey, I swear to G-d, I'm not bragging or trying to make anybody
jealous.

I am a loser with no life, and I am reliving my 15 minutes of fame,
ok? :)

[Treadleson]

Post by Just Walkin'
Mile Davis' abandonment of the cool jazz acoustic form he mastered in
favor of the electrified funk of In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew and On
the Corner was debated by purists at the time in much the same way as
Bob's switch to electric instruments provoked the folk crowd just a
few years before. Not only did both developments create new divisions
in the market, they fed hooks and handles to other artists for years
to come as they broadened creative frontiers and market shares by
contributing to the development of genre.
This striking parallel, and the fact that they shared the same label,
begs the question: Does anyone know anything about any meetings
between Bob Dylan and Miles Davis and what, if anything, might they
have discussed?

What Miles said was that he looked at performers like Sly and Bob
Dylan and the huge crowds that had come to Woodstock, and that 400,000
people at a concert makes people who make records go crazy. He said
that you couldn't compare his sales to the sales of people like Dylan
and Sly--theirs were through the roof. Clive Davis started talking
to him about changing his sound...modernizing it. Clive Davis was
building a new, younger audience by signing people like Blood Sweat &
Tears and Chicago. Davis didn't want to be relegated to back
catalogue "classic" status and so he electrified and rocked up his
sound to reach a wider, younger and whiter audience. His sales had
been declining through the sixties in the US and he was only half-
filling halls, although in Europe he was able to maintain full
houses. Then Bitches Brew came out, Davis hooked Davis up with Bill
Graham who put Miles at the Fillmore West with the G. Dead and the
Fillmore East with Laura Nyro. Miles got billed with Steve Miller and
The Band also. Grab the spacey white kids, you see. Miles came to
realize that most rock musicians don't know anything about music,
although he felt differently about J. Garcia--a jazz fan--and they hit
it off quite well.

But the genesis of all this is back in the early to mid sixties when
white critics started hailing free jazz people like Ornette Coleman,
Cecil Taylor, Albert Ayler and jazz started to lose its broad appeal.
Davis thought the critics were doing this because they felt threatened
by the great popularity of the lyrical stuff in records like Kind Of
Blue. The influence and popularity scared them so they supported the
Archie Schepps, et al of this world. But nobody really liked these
people and when the critics realized this they dropped them like a hot
potato. But the damage had been done because lots of the public now
associated jazz in general with this way-out crazy stuff. Jazz sales
began their decline. Miles said in his book: "I still don't believe
that Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, John Coltrane, and all of the
other way-out guys realize how they had been used by all those white
critics back then."

[Just Walkin']

Post by Treadleson

Post by Just Walkin'
Mile Davis' abandonment of the cool jazz acoustic form he mastered in
favor of the electrified funk of In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew and On
the Corner was debated by purists at the time in much the same way as
Bob's switch to electric instruments provoked the folk crowd just a
few years before. Not only did both developments create new divisions
in the market, they fed hooks and handles to other artists for years
to come as they broadened creative frontiers and market shares by
contributing to the development of genre.
This striking parallel, and the fact that they shared the same label,
begs the question: Does anyone know anything about any meetings
between Bob Dylan and Miles Davis and what, if anything, might they
have discussed?

What Miles said was that he looked at performers like Sly and Bob
Dylan and the huge crowds that had come to Woodstock, and that 400,000
people at a concert makes people who make records go crazy. He said
that you couldn't compare his sales to the sales of people like Dylan
and Sly--theirs were through the roof. Clive Davis started talking
to him about changing his sound...modernizing it. Clive Davis was
building a new, younger audience by signing people like Blood Sweat &
Tears and Chicago. Davis didn't want to be relegated to back
catalogue "classic" status and so he electrified and rocked up his
sound to reach a wider, younger and whiter audience. His sales had
been declining through the sixties in the US and he was only half-
filling halls, although in Europe he was able to maintain full
houses. Then Bitches Brew came out, Davis hooked Davis up with Bill
Graham who put Miles at the Fillmore West with the G. Dead and the
Fillmore East with Laura Nyro. Miles got billed with Steve Miller and
The Band also. Grab the spacey white kids, you see. Miles came to
realize that most rock musicians don't know anything about music,
although he felt differently about J. Garcia--a jazz fan--and they hit
it off quite well.
But the genesis of all this is back in the early to mid sixties when
white critics started hailing free jazz people like Ornette Coleman,
Cecil Taylor, Albert Ayler and jazz started to lose its broad appeal.
Davis thought the critics were doing this because they felt threatened
by the great popularity of the lyrical stuff in records like Kind Of
Blue. The influence and popularity scared them so they supported the
Archie Schepps, et al of this world. But nobody really liked these
people and when the critics realized this they dropped them like a hot
potato. But the damage had been done because lots of the public now
associated jazz in general with this way-out crazy stuff. Jazz sales
began their decline. Miles said in his book: "I still don't believe
that Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, John Coltrane, and all of the
other way-out guys realize how they had been used by all those white
critics back then."

Makes sense to me; New Directions WAS a commercial play. It may have
been Miles Ahead, but after Trane, it was Ornette's Shape of Jazz to
Come in 1959 that set the pace for the era. I'd throw Mingus in there
too, but he was too busy trying to Let Our Children Hear Music by the
time we caught up with Ah Hum...